The Natural is a modern story with many mythological connections. One of the most obvious is Mallamud's constant allusion to Arthurian Legend. Roy's baseball team is the New York Knights, his bat has magical properties and is called a "weapon" on page 77. On that same page (77), the baseball uniforms are likened to "armor". Some even more striking medieval metaphors are on page 225, when Vogelman sees Roy at the plate "mounted on a black charger...with a long lance as thick as a young tree." Thus Roy could symbolize one of the young knights at the round table, perhaps Lancelot, on a hero quest for redemption or some other worthy goal. Malamud is clever to insert these subtle references because the reader will subconsciously attribute some of the character traits they associate with knights such as bravery, chivalry, perhaps even ruthlessness and gluttony (on the flip side) to Roy and the other players, creating a deeper meaning to the story than what is on the surface.
As Gracie mentioned, Malamud weaves mythological references consistently throughout the book, making it almost like an allegory. He creates characters and actions comparable to those in many historic myths, which in turn, places the reader in suspended disbelief, allowing unbelievable occurrences to be accepted as real. Again as Gracie said, Malamud develops Roy to be almost like a knight in search of the Holy Grail, with innate talent and powers on the baseball field. With this and the metaphors mentioned above, the reader falls in to the story and will now believe that Roy can eat as much as he does, start a storm as he steps up to bat, etc. It gives the book a second meaning, which allows it to be read and loved by baseball lovers and haters alike.
In addition to what Gracie and Mary Beth have pointed out, Malamud describes the main women in this novel with words that reminded me of Homer's epic poems. Interestingly, Malamud references Home on page twenty-six. The first female character who is described in a mythological way is Harriet Bird. To Roy, Harriet is a "silver eyed mermaid" (10). For me her name seems to foreshadow her act of leading Roy into peril. After Harriet, Roy encounter Memo, the "singing green eyed siren"(185). Homer mentions sirens in the "Odyssey" and according to greek mythology are part woman and part bird lure sailors to destruction through song. Over time, siren became synonymous with seductress. Both women lead Roy into danger and tempt him into immoral situations. I agree with Mary Beth, these references and allusions definitely made the book interesting on different level.
As with most mythological stories, the character's ultimate downfall is a product of his personality. Malamud makes this clear with the three lowest points in the story. Roy is shot because of his lust for Harriet. Had been able to control his sexual longings, he would not have put himself in the position that enabled him to be shot. He would have been able to enter professional baseball at a much younger age, and it would have been considerably easier for him to become the "best." Roy is sent to the hospital when he is unable to control his gluttony, and he misses out on many important baseball games while he is in the hospital. Lastly, Roy gives up wining the pennant because of his greed for money. If he wasn't so greedy, he would not have begun to throw the game, again making it easier for him to become the best. If it were not for Roy's tragic flaws of lust, gluttony, and greed, he would have been able to achieve his dreams.
I agree with the comments said above that Malamud does indeed weave mythological references throughout the book. I noticed that there is a common reference to Roy Hobbs as a hero throughout this story. In pretty much every myth there is one hero of the story, and Roy is playing the role of the hero throughout the novel. "...supporters and to a frenzy of excitement which whirled out of them in concentric rings around the figure of Roy Hobbs, hero and undeniable man of destiny" (162) "She, making muted sounds of triumph and despair, danced on her toes around the stricken hero." (35)
Throughout The Natural, Roy Hobbs can easily be equated to various other heroes throughout history. In the beginning of the novel, Roy is nineteen years old and eager to make his name in the big-leagues. Along his initial journey to Chicago, Roy meets his first minor break in striking out the Whammer. As Gracie previously mentioned, this incident is reminiscent of the story of David and Goliath. The Whammer was said to be the biggest name in baseball at the time-able to hit any ball thrown his way. Roy, a no-name from a small town is able to take the Whammer down with only a baseball and three pitches. Similarly, in the biblical story of David and Goliath, David defeated Goliath with only his tools and his talent. Roy is also comparable to the mythological Achilles-a Grecian hero of the Trojan war. Achilles met his downfall in his longing to be remembered forever. Similarly, Roy, on his quest for worldwide recognition in baseball (his own holy grail), meets an early downfall with Harriet, leaving the reader wondering if Roy truly maxed out his potential in his older age. These mythological comparisons, in my mind, make the book out to be less credible, less inspiring, and less enjoyable altogether. While reading the book, it is hard to take seriously a man who eats six hamburgers in one sitting and beckons a thunder storm when his bat, "Wonderboy," contacts a baseball. It leaves me wondering if the book was even worth reading, because it is hard to take away true meaning from a book that is so unrealistic. On another note, after reading Alex's comment, I'm interested in the role of the seven deadly sins in this novel. She mentioned lust, gluttony, and greed as factors of Roy's downfall, but it may be interesting to explore the roles of sloth, wrath, envy and pride. These sins can be related back to not just Roy but other characters in the novel as well. Thoughts?
When Roy is talking to Harriet about himself as a ball player, he tells her that he wants to be "the best there ever was in the game", and when she asks "Is that all?" all Roy has to say is "You mean the bucks"(27)? Throughout the story, Roy is referred to as a hero and has a tragic flaw; he is selfish and and as Alex mentioned, greedy. I also noticed that Memo was referred to as a "green-eyed siren" (185); similar to the sirens in The Odyssey who distract Odysseus from where he is going; Memo ends up being the reason for Roy's slump.
To me, Judge Banner symbolizes the Devil. When Roy first asks him for a raise, Jude Banner is sitting in the dark. He is described as "a figure aglow around the edges against the darkening sky," (87) which makes me think of a fiery Devil. Also, the only source of light in the room comes from the fire of his lit cigar. Judge Banner tells Roy that he prefers a dark room to a lit one, and he describes darkness as "an exquisite mystical experience" (89). In the traditional good vs. evil struggle, light symbolizes good, while darkness symbolizes evil. Judge Banner also tempts Roy into succumbing to evil by asking him to throw the World Series game (although ironically he advises Roy to resisting evil at one point). When Roy agrees to throw the game for money, I see it as him selling his soul, which I think explains why he fails to win when he decides he doesn't want to throw the game anymore.
I’d like to compare Malamud’s Roy Hobbes to Virgil’s Aeneas, an important tragic hero in Roman Mythology. Aeneas, like Roy is responsible for building something up, in a sense. Roy with his optimistic attitude and good playing skills rebuilds the Knights into something worth watching (for a while), and Aeneas is the founding hero of Rome. At the beginning of the story, Harriet tries to kill Roy when Roy is called to her room. Aeneas is washed ashore from the goddesses Juno’s control over the seas. Juno tries to kill Aeneas because she feels threatened by what he will do to her land, is similar to Harriet with her malicious intent. Aeneas, who has an unhappy affair with the queen Dido mirrors Roy’s affair with Memo. Roy who stumbles into his hotel to find Memo naked on his bed is pressured into having sex with her is very similar to Aeneas’s unfortunate encounter with Dido in the underworld; both are surreal and both are in hostile situations for the heroes. Roman mythology is often reflected and portrayed through the weather and storms. Roy hitting the baseball at the same time that thunder strikes is similar to how ironic storms are synchronized with mortals actions. The Aneied is the Roman counterpart to the Greek Odyssey and Illiad. Lauren makes an excellent comparison between Memo and the sirens of Homers The Odyssey (185).
While my knowledge of mythology (whether it be Greek, Roman, or modern) is far from expansive, my understanding is that most myths feature a hero and a struggle between good and evil, or as Jana says, light versus dark. In Malamud's, The Natural, however, I feel that all of the characters are so morally ambiguous that there is no hero--that in fact, all of the characters are in some way villainous. For this reason it is hard for me wrap my head around the idea of Malamud's work as myth. That said, I agree with the above posts and think the comparisons are spot on, but believe that The Natural is more akin to an allegory due to its underlying theme of learning (or in Roy's case, not learning) from past mistakes.
My thinking goes along with Hannah's. Although, I don't have a lot of background information on Mythology, I definitely see where everyone is coming from in their comparisons. I personally didn't see these as I was reading the book, but now I look back and understand. I don't see Roy Hobbs as the hero of the novel, or any of the characters. In most myths the hero is tempted but some how always come back to the "good" side. Roy temptations led him to the hospital and almost destroyed his career. Besides Iris, I don't think of any of the characters as selfless. And I believe Roy to be selfish because he even considers to throw the game and he judges Iris because she is honest with him when she tells him she is a grandmother.
As the earlier posts show, Malamud plays with an interesting array of themes throughout the novel; one specific example I would like to touch on is Roy’s hunger issue and his addiction to food. After Roy refuses to love Iris, for the fact that she is a grandmother, which can be seen as a theme of life and fertility, he still continues to lust over Memo. Roy senses the feelings Memo brings upon him, explaining how she leaves him with a sense of un-satisfaction and hunger. This desire for lust and love, in my mind, translates into the reasoning why he eats so much—he is trying to cure the feeling of emptiness in his life, and trying to find a sight of fulfillment. I find this ironic because it wasn’t until he decides to leave Iris when the unbelievable feelings of hunger arise. This symbol of hunger and search for fullness can be seen as a more of a “Greek tragedy,” where Roy is trying to defeat his flaws in order to achieve his personal odyssey.
I am alongside Lindsey and Hannah with a limited knowledge of mythology. Many of these connections are new to me, such as Roy being able to eat an unearthly amount. However, there were a few things throughout the book that seemed surreal. For instance, Roy's bat, wonderboy, is much like excalibur was to King Arthur. The bat has a magical element to it, as it seems to give Roy the power to hit extremely well, disregarding the few slumps. Turning to Greek mythology, Memo reminded me of the Sirens. Memo would seduce Roy, only to bring him closer to self destruction. Although money was a large part of her motive, it seemed her main goal was to ultimately ruin Roy.
I, also, lack a substantial scope of Greek mythology, but I understand and agree with all the comparisons that have been brought up concerning Roy. He represents the fallen hero that gets thrown into a city full of distractions and temptations that he simply isn't ready for. The fame and fortune may mean everything to him but he sees the consequences of all of it especially when he lands in the hospital because of his gluttony. It's also characteristic of Greek mythological characters to ignore what is best for them, and in Roy's case it is Iris Lemon, the opposite of Memo. Also, going with what Lila was saying, it was sort of unrealistic how the drought suddenly ended once Roy started bringing successes to his team, finally making the field grass again.
Whenever an author incorporates mythical attributes into his/her story, it can be guaranteed that there is a certain set of emotions that they want their reader to feel. Though I have a limited knowledge of specific myths, I know that there is usually a hero and a journey. Maybe the hero is here to save the world from destruction; maybe they are just a middle aged baseball player with personal problems. Whatever the case, the hero's journey has the power to evoke strong emotion in just about anyone. Malamud has fused many mythical traits into The Natural and its characters. Roy is the hero of our story, but he has a fatal flaw. He understands deep down that he has feelings for Iris, yet he still wants Memo. To Roy, Iris means slowing down and growing up, while Memo is youthful and exciting.
Last year I took Heros and Villains in which we read a lot of mythology, and one element that I noticed in many of the works that we read was the connection of suffering and happiness. Many of the stories showed how one must go through suffering in order to reach happiness. A quotation from part VI of The Natural says, "Suffering is what brings us toward happiness," which follows the same path as many characters in mythology.
The Natural is a modern story with many mythological connections. One of the most obvious is Mallamud's constant allusion to Arthurian Legend. Roy's baseball team is the New York Knights, his bat has magical properties and is called a "weapon" on page 77. On that same page (77), the baseball uniforms are likened to "armor". Some even more striking medieval metaphors are on page 225, when Vogelman sees Roy at the plate "mounted on a black charger...with a long lance as thick as a young tree." Thus Roy could symbolize one of the young knights at the round table, perhaps Lancelot, on a hero quest for redemption or some other worthy goal. Malamud is clever to insert these subtle references because the reader will subconsciously attribute some of the character traits they associate with knights such as bravery, chivalry, perhaps even ruthlessness and gluttony (on the flip side) to Roy and the other players, creating a deeper meaning to the story than what is on the surface.
ReplyDelete*forgot to add about the carnival scene between Whammer and Roy being like David and Goliath...But someone else can elaborate on that
ReplyDeleteAs Gracie mentioned, Malamud weaves mythological references consistently throughout the book, making it almost like an allegory. He creates characters and actions comparable to those in many historic myths, which in turn, places the reader in suspended disbelief, allowing unbelievable occurrences to be accepted as real.
ReplyDeleteAgain as Gracie said, Malamud develops Roy to be almost like a knight in search of the Holy Grail, with innate talent and powers on the baseball field. With this and the metaphors mentioned above, the reader falls in to the story and will now believe that Roy can eat as much as he does, start a storm as he steps up to bat, etc. It gives the book a second meaning, which allows it to be read and loved by baseball lovers and haters alike.
In addition to what Gracie and Mary Beth have pointed out, Malamud describes the main women in this novel with words that reminded me of Homer's epic poems. Interestingly, Malamud references Home on page twenty-six.
ReplyDeleteThe first female character who is described in a mythological way is Harriet Bird. To Roy, Harriet is a "silver eyed mermaid" (10). For me her name seems to foreshadow her act of leading Roy into peril.
After Harriet, Roy encounter Memo, the "singing green eyed siren"(185). Homer mentions sirens in the "Odyssey" and according to greek mythology are part woman and part bird lure sailors to destruction through song. Over time, siren became synonymous with seductress.
Both women lead Roy into danger and tempt him into immoral situations. I agree with Mary Beth, these references and allusions definitely made the book interesting on different level.
As with most mythological stories, the character's ultimate downfall is a product of his personality. Malamud makes this clear with the three lowest points in the story. Roy is shot because of his lust for Harriet. Had been able to control his sexual longings, he would not have put himself in the position that enabled him to be shot. He would have been able to enter professional baseball at a much younger age, and it would have been considerably easier for him to become the "best." Roy is sent to the hospital when he is unable to control his gluttony, and he misses out on many important baseball games while he is in the hospital. Lastly, Roy gives up wining the pennant because of his greed for money. If he wasn't so greedy, he would not have begun to throw the game, again making it easier for him to become the best. If it were not for Roy's tragic flaws of lust, gluttony, and greed, he would have been able to achieve his dreams.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the comments said above that Malamud does indeed weave mythological references throughout the book. I noticed that there is a common reference to Roy Hobbs as a hero throughout this story. In pretty much every myth there is one hero of the story, and Roy is playing the role of the hero throughout the novel.
ReplyDelete"...supporters and to a frenzy of excitement which whirled out of them in concentric rings around the figure of Roy Hobbs, hero and undeniable man of destiny" (162)
"She, making muted sounds of triumph and despair, danced on her toes around the stricken hero." (35)
Throughout The Natural, Roy Hobbs can easily be equated to various other heroes throughout history. In the beginning of the novel, Roy is nineteen years old and eager to make his name in the big-leagues. Along his initial journey to Chicago, Roy meets his first minor break in striking out the Whammer. As Gracie previously mentioned, this incident is reminiscent of the story of David and Goliath. The Whammer was said to be the biggest name in baseball at the time-able to hit any ball thrown his way. Roy, a no-name from a small town is able to take the Whammer down with only a baseball and three pitches. Similarly, in the biblical story of David and Goliath, David defeated Goliath with only his tools and his talent. Roy is also comparable to the mythological Achilles-a Grecian hero of the Trojan war. Achilles met his downfall in his longing to be remembered forever. Similarly, Roy, on his quest for worldwide recognition in baseball (his own holy grail), meets an early downfall with Harriet, leaving the reader wondering if Roy truly maxed out his potential in his older age.
ReplyDeleteThese mythological comparisons, in my mind, make the book out to be less credible, less inspiring, and less enjoyable altogether. While reading the book, it is hard to take seriously a man who eats six hamburgers in one sitting and beckons a thunder storm when his bat, "Wonderboy," contacts a baseball. It leaves me wondering if the book was even worth reading, because it is hard to take away true meaning from a book that is so unrealistic.
On another note, after reading Alex's comment, I'm interested in the role of the seven deadly sins in this novel. She mentioned lust, gluttony, and greed as factors of Roy's downfall, but it may be interesting to explore the roles of sloth, wrath, envy and pride. These sins can be related back to not just Roy but other characters in the novel as well. Thoughts?
When Roy is talking to Harriet about himself as a ball player, he tells her that he wants to be "the best there ever was in the game", and when she asks "Is that all?" all Roy has to say is "You mean the bucks"(27)? Throughout the story, Roy is referred to as a hero and has a tragic flaw; he is selfish and and as Alex mentioned, greedy. I also noticed that Memo was referred to as a "green-eyed siren" (185); similar to the sirens in The Odyssey who distract Odysseus from where he is going; Memo ends up being the reason for Roy's slump.
ReplyDeleteTo me, Judge Banner symbolizes the Devil. When Roy first asks him for a raise, Jude Banner is sitting in the dark. He is described as "a figure aglow around the edges against the darkening sky," (87) which makes me think of a fiery Devil. Also, the only source of light in the room comes from the fire of his lit cigar. Judge Banner tells Roy that he prefers a dark room to a lit one, and he describes darkness as "an exquisite mystical experience" (89). In the traditional good vs. evil struggle, light symbolizes good, while darkness symbolizes evil. Judge Banner also tempts Roy into succumbing to evil by asking him to throw the World Series game (although ironically he advises Roy to resisting evil at one point). When Roy agrees to throw the game for money, I see it as him selling his soul, which I think explains why he fails to win when he decides he doesn't want to throw the game anymore.
ReplyDeleteI’d like to compare Malamud’s Roy Hobbes to Virgil’s Aeneas, an important tragic hero in Roman Mythology. Aeneas, like Roy is responsible for building something up, in a sense. Roy with his optimistic attitude and good playing skills rebuilds the Knights into something worth watching (for a while), and Aeneas is the founding hero of Rome. At the beginning of the story, Harriet tries to kill Roy when Roy is called to her room. Aeneas is washed ashore from the goddesses Juno’s control over the seas. Juno tries to kill Aeneas because she feels threatened by what he will do to her land, is similar to Harriet with her malicious intent. Aeneas, who has an unhappy affair with the queen Dido mirrors Roy’s affair with Memo. Roy who stumbles into his hotel to find Memo naked on his bed is pressured into having sex with her is very similar to Aeneas’s unfortunate encounter with Dido in the underworld; both are surreal and both are in hostile situations for the heroes. Roman mythology is often reflected and portrayed through the weather and storms. Roy hitting the baseball at the same time that thunder strikes is similar to how ironic storms are synchronized with mortals actions. The Aneied is the Roman counterpart to the Greek Odyssey and Illiad. Lauren makes an excellent comparison between Memo and the sirens of Homers The Odyssey (185).
ReplyDeleteWhile my knowledge of mythology (whether it be Greek, Roman, or modern) is far from expansive, my understanding is that most myths feature a hero and a struggle between good and evil, or as Jana says, light versus dark. In Malamud's, The Natural, however, I feel that all of the characters are so morally ambiguous that there is no hero--that in fact, all of the characters are in some way villainous. For this reason it is hard for me wrap my head around the idea of Malamud's work as myth. That said, I agree with the above posts and think the comparisons are spot on, but believe that The Natural is more akin to an allegory due to its underlying theme of learning (or in Roy's case, not learning) from past mistakes.
ReplyDeleteMy thinking goes along with Hannah's. Although, I don't have a lot of background information on Mythology, I definitely see where everyone is coming from in their comparisons. I personally didn't see these as I was reading the book, but now I look back and understand.
ReplyDeleteI don't see Roy Hobbs as the hero of the novel, or any of the characters. In most myths the hero is tempted but some how always come back to the "good" side. Roy temptations led him to the hospital and almost destroyed his career. Besides Iris, I don't think of any of the characters as selfless. And I believe Roy to be selfish because he even considers to throw the game and he judges Iris because she is honest with him when she tells him she is a grandmother.
As the earlier posts show, Malamud plays with an interesting array of themes throughout the novel; one specific example I would like to touch on is Roy’s hunger issue and his addiction to food. After Roy refuses to love Iris, for the fact that she is a grandmother, which can be seen as a theme of life and fertility, he still continues to lust over Memo. Roy senses the feelings Memo brings upon him, explaining how she leaves him with a sense of un-satisfaction and hunger. This desire for lust and love, in my mind, translates into the reasoning why he eats so much—he is trying to cure the feeling of emptiness in his life, and trying to find a sight of fulfillment. I find this ironic because it wasn’t until he decides to leave Iris when the unbelievable feelings of hunger arise. This symbol of hunger and search for fullness can be seen as a more of a “Greek tragedy,” where Roy is trying to defeat his flaws in order to achieve his personal odyssey.
ReplyDeleteI am alongside Lindsey and Hannah with a limited knowledge of mythology. Many of these connections are new to me, such as Roy being able to eat an unearthly amount. However, there were a few things throughout the book that seemed surreal. For instance, Roy's bat, wonderboy, is much like excalibur was to King Arthur. The bat has a magical element to it, as it seems to give Roy the power to hit extremely well, disregarding the few slumps.
ReplyDeleteTurning to Greek mythology, Memo reminded me of the Sirens. Memo would seduce Roy, only to bring him closer to self destruction. Although money was a large part of her motive, it seemed her main goal was to ultimately ruin Roy.
I, also, lack a substantial scope of Greek mythology, but I understand and agree with all the comparisons that have been brought up concerning Roy. He represents the fallen hero that gets thrown into a city full of distractions and temptations that he simply isn't ready for. The fame and fortune may mean everything to him but he sees the consequences of all of it especially when he lands in the hospital because of his gluttony. It's also characteristic of Greek mythological characters to ignore what is best for them, and in Roy's case it is Iris Lemon, the opposite of Memo.
ReplyDeleteAlso, going with what Lila was saying, it was sort of unrealistic how the drought suddenly ended once Roy started bringing successes to his team, finally making the field grass again.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhenever an author incorporates mythical attributes into his/her story, it can be guaranteed that there is a certain set of emotions that they want their reader to feel. Though I have a limited knowledge of specific myths, I know that there is usually a hero and a journey. Maybe the hero is here to save the world from destruction; maybe they are just a middle aged baseball player with personal problems. Whatever the case, the hero's journey has the power to evoke strong emotion in just about anyone. Malamud has fused many mythical traits into The Natural and its characters. Roy is the hero of our story, but he has a fatal flaw. He understands deep down that he has feelings for Iris, yet he still wants Memo. To Roy, Iris means slowing down and growing up, while Memo is youthful and exciting.
ReplyDeleteLast year I took Heros and Villains in which we read a lot of mythology, and one element that I noticed in many of the works that we read was the connection of suffering and happiness. Many of the stories showed how one must go through suffering in order to reach happiness. A quotation from part VI of The Natural says, "Suffering is what brings us toward happiness," which follows the same path as many characters in mythology.
ReplyDelete